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"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

As a Bahá'í we learn not to engage in Party Politics, and not to do anything dogmatically, so constantly keep learning. A muslim principle is to obey first, you will learn to understand by doing. As such by trying to abstain from fully identifying with the Social Justice bandwagon who seem to fight for the good of all, I got to see the good of both sides, and I really think we should actively try to depolarize.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

Of course I do agree that we cannot give space to fascism, but the legitimate concern I often hear from the right is that social justice demonizes the common class. I think the right perspective to see this in is the one of progression: where is progress, is a past we come from. This is a necessary platform we should rise up from, not a pest we should try to kill. Nationalism should not be killed by demonizing nationalists, but grown to contain the world.

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"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

The same way racism shouldn't be eradicated by calling out racists as bad people. Those people are not bad, they learned to value their own people. Now get into conversations and expand to value all people. It's increasing their own principles and values, not shaming for having values. We should call conservatism to their truest ideals to be good law-abiding citizens in the broadest sense, not critique every step that is taken to understand our world.

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"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino I think what you're failing to recognize is that racists and bigots are shaming people simply for existing, irrespective of any action we take.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino Their sense of victimization at being told not to do this is akin to a toddler throwing a tantrum over being told not to hit another child.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino Overall I agree that bigots aren't fundamentally bad people, just as toddlers are not fundamentally bad people. And I agree that some effort should be made to reach out to them and to change their minds.

It's a lot harder for us "SJWs" to do that, though, because we are predominantly people who they don't respect in the first place, and their reason for not respecting us has nothing to do with any action we take.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino So when someone starts lecturing at "SJWs," I always have to wonder why they empathize so much with bigots but are willing to ignore the much worse treatment experienced at bigots' hands by the people they're lecturing.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino It'd be much more helpful if instead of lecturing us, they talked to the bigots.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino When I say bigots hate us for reasons beyond our control, I'm being quite literal. Look at Lidya Zamenhof. She tried to just be a human, but she was killed as a Jew. It didn't matter how great of a person she was or how magnanimous or how understanding she was of her persecutors.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@kittybecca Lidia Zamenhof was also a Bahá'í, like me, and yes, she was killed as a jew. My point in this is that indeed, whatever you do it won't solve this, if you lecture or not, and I think actually lecturing can make things worse. In the Bahá'í writings we learn about consultation, which means that you try to solve something together by actively trying to find the truth. You both contribute with your honest thoughts, and don't judge.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@kittybecca Almost always both sides will find things they never thought about. In this consultation model, you never try to convince others, but you contribute with what you understand and what others understand. This way you can actually progress much faster. I see many dogmas in the Social Justice community, for a good reason but with terrible effects until they get torn down by reality over time.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@kittybecca It is often very hard to see that many things stated are not like that for all people involved. For example about islamophobia: while the general public is being called out for islamophobia, many common muslims are trying to improve their common muslim culture, and don't find allies because we think anything muslim should be okay. Americans call out China for being a surveillance state while ignoring their opinion about safety and privacy.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino

"while the general public is being called out for islamophobia, many common muslims are trying to improve their common muslim culture, and don't find allies because we think anything muslim should be okay"

this is often a problem in marginalized communities. the problem is that bad-faith actors will blow problems out of proportion or use them as propaganda, and then it becomes difficult to talk about them with nuance, especially w/ outsiders.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino in a sense, the stereotype of the "SJW" has roots in some of the worst aspects of social justice discourse, but legitimate criticisms of parts of social justice discourse are used in bad faith to bludgeon anyone who advocates any sort of social change. it took me a while to learn that i was going to be called an SJW no matter what i did, save 100% validate and rubber stamp every assumption of the dominant culture.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@kittybecca yes, that is exactly what I felt with the person I try to reason with I asked you about before: he considers everyone under the header cultural marxism because of this crazy Peterson stuff, and he thinks he is this logical, rational human being who is much more open to diverse thought.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@kittybecca I find it really hard to take a correct position in all this, because I am 100% for the social change proposed and needed, but I feel often that the ways used are having a net negative effect, but ironically when I try to point that out in public, I can be considered "one of them". No problem though in personal conversations, where we quickly find common ground.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino there are also a lot of provocateurs in the mix. it's a scary time to live in. there are people paid to make sure that these conversations blow up and people are at each other's throats. there always have been, but it's so much easier with the internet.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@kittybecca Completely agree. I do think that this is not completely avoidable, but I am very lucky to have very good guidance about this in my religion (sorry for the advertising! I already put it in the CW xD) and I feel like I can mostly just sit most things out. Not by being neutral, but by giving all people involved a chance and place to heal, and to understand each other's point of view. I think that goes a long way in going baby steps forward.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino there's a lot to love about the Baha'i Faith. i was first exposed to it by a coworker from Iran. there's a lot about it that's beautiful, which is why it hurt me so much to learn of its opinions on homosexuality.

at the same time, it seems unhelpful in this conversation, which is about a material thing. people aren't going to take your religion's word for it; you'd be better just explaining the rational basis behind why it is a good idea.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino but you're right, it is in the content warning.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@kittybecca true, I try to do that, we cannot just believe anything without knowing why. To be honest, even with the stuff you already know about homosexuality in the Bahá'í faith, many LGBT are Bahá'í, I have many good friends like that, and it's mostly a reason for me to try to understand all sides of it better, not stop at community decided dogmas about LGBT. For example my brother is gay and I am pan, and my family is mostly christian.

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"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino i'm concerned we don't have time to heal, and most of us don't have a place to heal either. there are big, big problems related to the amount of inequality in the world that might need to be solved before everyone can legitimately heal.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino not to mention climate change, which is probably even more important.

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"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@kittybecca I think being in the right community is crucial for this. The problem is that acting for social justice at this moment involves so much judgement that inevitably you end up judging not only the bad guys, but everyone inside your community. It is very stressful to live up to the standards you fight for, and as such many SJW (excuse me using the term, not meant bad) remain closeted about things they want to talk about, too.

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"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino a distinction needs to be made because it's a heterogeneous group. there are people who legitimately feel worth nothing, and people who are manipulating them to feel that way. and it's even more heterogeneous than that, because there are also billionaires bankrolling sites like breitbart, movements like Brexit, and similar mass propaganda efforts. they do this at a loss to remake the world in their image.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@kittybecca Exactly. My initial point is then that the bigots/bad actors grow from a community that never is seen as marginalized, but now feels like considered worth nothing, and as such feel that it's against their community's values to participate in progress. We should make conscious effort to understand their values, and adjust our language to enable them to grow with the necessary progress.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino This line of reasoning, that social justice "demonizes the common class," carries with it an implicit assumption that only straight white men are members of the common class.

"SJW" / Polarization / Bahá'í (Religion) 

@lapingvino It also carries with it a stereotype of the working class that, at least here in the States, is false. For example, an analysis of the 2016 election results shows that working class status does not predict Trump support when you control for race. But whiteness does predict Trump support, irrespective of class.

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